Legislature(2005 - 2006)BUTROVICH 205
04/18/2005 01:30 PM Senate HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB156 | |
| SB167 | |
| HB128 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | SB 156 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 167 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 150 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HB 128 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 167-EDU MATERIALS FROM RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION
CHAIR DYSON announced SB 167 to be up for consideration. He said
SB 345 was signed into law on August 2002. With respect to
AS.14.18.060 it says:
Nothing in this paragraph precludes a correspondence
study student or the parent or guardian of that
correspondence study student from privately obtaining
textbooks or curriculum material not provided by the
school district.
It now appears as though the Department of Education has issued
regulations that say parents can't use certain curricula and
text that they have purchased. He asked Mr. Neil Slotnick
whether this was the case.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
No, that is not what the regulations provide. The
regulations adopted by the Department of Education and
Early Development specifically provide that parents
can obtain a curriculum of their own choosing.
Districts may provide credit for classes that are
obtained by the parents without district approval and
purchased by the parents with their own personal funds
and taught by the parents.
The district cannot receive funding on the basis of
those curricula that are selected by the parents,
administered and taught by the parent and paid for by
the parents. The district will receive funding for
each full-time equivalent student that is enrolled on
count day in a correspondence study program. If it is
a correspondence study program, at least one half of
that student's curriculum must consist of academic
classes.
If a student comes in who is going to be selecting a
religious curricula and that student is enrolled in a
public school, if he is taught by a state school
district and takes three classes from the
correspondence study program and one class that is
purchased by the student's parents and it has a
religious basis, that district will receive funding
for a three quarter equivalent, because the curriculum
consists of three classes that are district provided
and one class that is personally provided.
The aforementioned subject was at issue when the Department of
Education did a recent monitoring of correspondence study
practices. It found some correspondence programs had missed that
distinction and had submitted students in courses such as that
for 100 percent reimbursement. The Department disallowed that
practice and placed the districts on a program of correction.
1:52:14 PM
CHAIR DYSON said his understanding of SB 345 was that it allows
a parent to select a text and if the correspondence school
teacher supervising the class were comfortable with that text,
the parents can teach it and the school would give credit for it
even if a religious publisher publishes the texts.
MR. SLOTNICK said there were a couple of different issues;
credit, funding, and school district participation in teaching
religious materials. Credit is a matter of district discretion.
If a parent purchases and teaches a religious curriculum, the
district decides whether or not to accept it for credit. The
department has no regulations governing the district's decision
on whether or not to give credit for such a course.
With regards to the issue of funding, the parent may not use
state funds to purchase the religious curriculum and the school
district may not be reimbursed with state funds for a student
who is taught under that curriculum.
The third issue is not explicitly covered in regulations, but it
is nevertheless covered in the constitution. It is argued that
allowing a teacher to teach a religious curriculum while
employed at a public school is a violation of both the United
States Constitution's First Amendment and the Alaska
Constitution.
1:55:53 PM
CHAIR DYSON asked whether there were legal criteria for
classifying a course as a religious course.
MR. SLOTNICK responded the department has two requirements that
speak to the inability of schools to use religious curriculum.
One is in AS.14.03.090, which says:
Partisan, sectarian or denominational doctrines may
not be advocated in a public school during the hours
that the school is in session. A teacher or school
board violating the section may not receive public
money.
There is a clear requirement in the department's regulation
4AAC33.421(d) that says:
Certificated staff members may not advocate religious,
partisan, sectarian or denominational doctrine as part
of the member's instructional duties as certificated
staff for the district's correspondence study program.
The department also has a requirement that money used to
purchase such programs cannot be reimbursed with state money. He
does not know whether there are explicit definitions of the
terms used in the aforementioned regulations. He is not aware of
any problems that have arisen from a lack of the definitions.
SENATOR OLSON said he took a college class on the bible as
literature and asked whether the regulations prohibit such
courses.
MR. SLOTNICK responded courses that advocate a religious
perspective may not be taught in the public schools, but courses
about religion as an academic subject are allowed.
SENATOR OLSON asked whether the state would be allowed to
reimburse the expense of bibles if they were purchased for an
academic study of religion.
MR. SLOTNICK could not answer the question at the time.
2:02:40 PM
SENATOR GREEN asked whether there is a way for parents to ensure
that their children would receive credit for a given course
before they begin teaching that course.
BARBARA THOMPSON, director of the Division of Teaching and
Learning Support, said when a student enrolls in the statewide
correspondence individual learning program, learning plans are
developed and curriculum and materials are discussed. At that
point there should be an approval of the learning plan because
the parent, the student and the district work on that plan
together.
SENATOR GREEN asked whether the district is required to approve
all courses at that time.
MR. SLOTNICK responded there is a requirement the individual
learning plan be jointly approved at the start of the year. He
did not know whether that requirement addresses courses taken
outside of the district's own program.
2:05:22 PM
CHAIR DYSON said:
When we passed SB 345, we anticipated that the parents
and the student would present a text to the
correspondence supervisor who would then determine
whether or not it was appropriate. What I hear you
saying, which is so disturbing, is that if that text,
which might be absolutely world class academically,
has a religious publisher or a religious slant to it,
they can't give credit to the student for it and the
school cannot get reimbursed through the foundation
formula for providing the education that uses that
text.
That means that if you are studying Newton, whom I
happen to respect, who evolved calculus and was
absolutely stunned at the eloquence of the equations
of the obits of the planets and ascribed them to some
grand mathematician, we can't use it. If you come
across any of the personal views of the classic
scientists such as Holm, Faraday, Boyles, on the
origins of the universe, you can't use them. Do we
have to go through Shakespeare and take out all of the
biblical allusions? What is the deal here?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
If what I said was interpreted to mean that we have to
cleanse all references to religion from texts, then I
certainly misspoke, that is not what I intended to
say, but there are correspondence study programs that
clearly advocate a religious perspective. They do what
AS.14.03.090 says you cannot do in a public school. I
have seen some of these and it is very clear that they
are advocating a religious view. Those programs
cannot be purchased with state funds. Districts cannot
be reimbursed for students taking those classes and
public school teachers should not be involved in
teaching those programs.
CHAIR DYSON said:
I have information from several states that go right
down a list of all of these religious textbook
publishers, and they are absolutely approved. They
have their own First Amendment language as well. What
makes us so weird that those texts can't be used here?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
The Department of Education and Early Development does
not have a list of textbooks. The district decides
what will and will not be approved when it meets with
a student and his parents. As to whether or not it is
a reimbursable expense, if it is not a reimbursable
expense for the parent, then it is not a reimbursable
class for the district. That is what the Department of
Education has determined and that is the extent of the
determination that I am aware of.
2:08:42 PM
CHAIR DYSON said:
I think that that is absolutely outrageous, but my
argument is not with you. My reading of the law is
that the school and the teacher can't do the
advocating, but I don't read where that is applied to
the materials that are used. Can you show me that?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
If it is going to be state reimbursed, then the
teacher cannot be an advocate of any particular
religion. So, if the materials advocate a particular
religion...
CHAIR DYSON interjected:
That is not what it says, this is AS.14.03.090A:
'Except as provided in B, the partisan, sectarian or
denomination doctrines may not be advocated in a
public school during the hours the school is in
session.' A teacher or school board violating this may
not receive public money. It doesn't say 'the
materials' and it sounds to me like it is what people
do when the school is in session. Am I misreading
that?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
It would be my view that if a teacher is using a
denominational text to teach from, that teacher is in
violation of AS.14.03.090.
CHAIR DYSON asked:
Even if it is just a generally religiously oriented
text without emphasis on a specific denomination?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
It is the same answer if it is a religiously oriented
text that is advocated, as opposed to teaching about
religion.
CHAIR DYSON said:
What if it is Buddhist, which by definition is
agnostic? Buddhists are very clear that they do not
say anything about God or ultimate things? It would be
okay, right?
MR. SLOTNICK responded, "You are getting way beyond my areas of
expertise."
CHAIR DYSON said:
You and I think of it as religion because it is a way
of life, a philosophical and mental way of viewing
life, but by definition it is agnostic.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
Mr. Chairman, I don't know. It sounds to me like it
might be a partisan, sectarian, or denominational
doctrine that is prohibited by 090. If someone
challenges that, I guess that we will have to look
into it.
SENATOR ELTON asked how a student that transfers from a home
school curriculum into a public school is placed with respect to
his or her grade level in the public school.
MS. THOMPSON responded it depends on the grade level. If it is
an elementary school, a district may accept that student based
on information that has been provided by his parent, evidence of
work produced, or by placement assessment.
2:12:39 PM
SENATOR ELTON asked whether it possible for a school district to
place a home school student in a lower grade level because part
of his or her curriculum contained religious material for which
the school district denied credit.
MS. THOMPSON said she has never heard of a case in which that
has happened.
2:14:40 PM
CHAIR DYSON asked:
Why do you suppose that other states are able to allow
their correspondence students to use texts from
religious publishers while ours does not allow these
same texts?
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
I am not able to answer that question. I don't know
that this state has a policy that there can be no
texts from a religious institution. What we cannot
have is text that would be considered advocating
religion under the statute.
CHAIR DYSON said:
These other states very clearly do. The list that I
read this morning includes many that are used here
Abeka comes to mind and several others that I am told
are excellent for math and so on. Is there something
peculiar about our state constitution that makes it so
that those apparently excellent academic texts can't
be used because they have a religious or philosophical
slant to them?
MR. SLOTNICK responded
I haven't seen any of this research for which you are
speaking. I do know that our constitution prohibits
direct aid to religious, sectarian schools. We also
have the separation of church and state in our state
constitution and in the federal constitution. This
body has passed a law as well, telling us that schools
cannot advocate denominational, sectarian doctrines.
2:18:06 PM
Given that, I think that school districts themselves
have applied these rules and have come to the
determination that they cannot use state funds to
purchase certain texts. It has been a district
determination. There has been a monitoring done by the
Department and it has said that there can be no state
funding for courses that are using religious texts.
To my knowledge there has not been an appeal of that
determination, which is what would put it into my
arena over at the department of law. I have not looked
into whether we are different from other states and
whether there are standards that we could use to
approve these texts.
CHAIR DYSON said:
In my understanding, the department is only applying
this standard to correspondence programs that are
administered across school district boundaries and not
to the ones that are administered within a given
district.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
The monitoring was conducted only for statewide
correspondence programs. It is the state board's view
that where there is a wholly in-district program there
is not as much need for oversight as there is for a
statewide program. That does not mean that in-district
programs are free to engage in a practice that would
violate AS.14.03.090 or the Alaska Constitution or the
Federal Constitution. If we had information that such
practices were going on, we certainly would take
action.
CHAIR DYSON said:
Which might mean, in your opinion, if a parent had
bought a textbook that was otherwise excellent, but
happened to have a religious orientation and the kid
was getting credit for that class as a core class and
the school was getting reimbursement from the state,
then you would want to stop that.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
The credit issue is not one that the state would want
to stop. As far as reimbursement for that class as a
core class, yes. If state money were being used to pay
for that class or if teachers paid with state money
were teaching that class, then the Department of
Education would take action.
CHAIR DYSON asked what the Legislature and the department should
do about an unconstitutional law, which SB 345 seems to be, that
has been passed by the Legislature. He asked whether the
Department of Education or the Department of Law could sue the
Legislature in such a case.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
We have, in the past, issued an Attorney General's
opinion and if something is clearly unconstitutional,
we have stated it. Where there is no clarity regarding
an issue, I usually consider it my job to defend a
statute if I can, or, in the alternative, ask if there
is an interpretation of the statute that would not
offend the constitution. As I read AS.14.07.050, there
is such an interpretation. We certainly do not
prohibit parents or guardians from privately obtaining
textbooks and curriculum that are not provided by the
school districts. They are free to do so, but we do
not reimburse the parents or the school districts for
those classes.
CHAIR DYSON interjected:
That last one is really a sticking point. If that text
and a supervising teacher working together get a
student to accumulate the skills and knowledge that
they want and they can pass a test, why shouldn't the
district be reimbursed for that? The kid learned the
material.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
Mr. Chairman, the problem is that we have a
requirement in our constitution of separation of
church and state. There is a line, upon which we would
all agree at some point, that we can't have a teacher
advocating religion in the public schools. The
question is where do we draw that line? Where are they
no longer advocating religion and merely teaching
purely secular academic subjects? To answer that
question we really need to have more facts than we
have here today. I am not sure if that has really been
the issue in the monitoring because, again, the
initial decision that these materials are not
available for reimbursement was made at the district
level in every case in the monitoring.
CHAIR DYSON said:
So the department did an audit, decided that some
districts were getting money for classes that students
took under their supervision that used a text that
might have come from a religious publisher and
therefore the audit shows that they can't get
reimbursed for that and they have got to change their
ways. That is what has produced this whole flap?
2:25:25 PM
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
In at least one case the district did not have a
policy of letting the teachers teach this religious
oriented material. It was very clear that
correspondence teachers were not supposed to teach it
and yet the district still sought state reimbursement
for it. I think that therein is part of the dilemma.
When we have correspondence programs and we provide
for districts to administer them, we expect those
districts to do something for that money. So they
really should be in there helping students learn that
material.
CHAIR DYSON said:
That is certainly not the argument from my
perspective. I don't want them to get paid for work
that they didn't do, but if they supervised and taught
a child using a text book that doesn't meet your
standard of secularity, I think they ought to get
credit for it and get paid for it as long as a teacher
thinks that he can teach math or chemistry or reading
from it. I think that it is incumbent upon those who
are going to take this stand to define what makes it a
religious advocacy book. Does that mean Augustine's
"City of God", Milton and half of Shakespeare are to
be precluded from our literature classes?
MR. SLOTNICK responded, "I am probably not qualified to say, but
I would say, in my view, no they are not."
CHAIR DYSON said, "I am with you and most of the classic
scientists of the West are the same way."
SENATOR GREEN asked whether the department has examples of
pertinent egregious materials.
MR. SLOTNICK responded:
The way I would approach it is to not try and sit in
the hypothetical and think something, I would want to
see the texts and see how other states evaluate them
and check with the experts of the education department
to see if they could be taught in a completely and
wholly secular manner. That is how I would approach
it. It really must be a factual determination.
2:30:35 PM
NELS TOMLINSON said he and his wife are currently home schooling
their three children. So far the restrictions the school
district has placed on curriculum have not been a problem. After
last year's new regulations, several of the families that he
sees regularly through the Juneau Home Educators Association
have told him they are struggling over whether or not they want
to continue with the public program. He believes the statewide
School Board, The Department of Education, and the Department of
Law are all acting in accordance with what they think is the law
and the Legislature's intent. He expressed support for SB 167.
2:34:52 PM
SENATOR ELTON asked whether a student enrolled in a state funded
correspondence program is subject to state requirements such as
the High-school Exit Exam.
MR. THOMASON responded his children are enrolled in a public
curriculum, so they are subject to the school district's
standards.
PATRICK SHIER said he saw a copy of the letter from the school
district to the Raven Correspondence Program which said that
credit would not be granted for non-secular studies. He is
concerned about how that would affect parents in home school
programs that use religious materials. The school district
policies may negatively affect students that return to high
school after being taught through private programs. He supported
SB 167.
2:45:35 PM
RUTH ABBOT, Delta Junction, supported SB 167. She taught her two
children with a Christian curriculum and both are currently
excelling at college. The Christian Home School curriculum is
not substantially different from the public school's secular
curriculum since they both use the same information. The main
difference is in the perspective of the two curricula. She would
like to know the difference between a parent-teacher explaining
a secular text within a religious context and the textbook that
presented the parent's perspective within the text itself.
2:47:38 PM
ANNIE DOUGHERTY, Fairbanks, said that she has extensive
experience in the school system and is currently teaching her
children in home school. She supported SB 167. She said the
exclusive concern of the education system should be the academic
performance of its students and it is irrelevant whether a high
level of academic performance is obtained through secular or
sectarian programs. She said that there are many elements in
sectarian correspondence programs that do not teach religious
material and yet they are still precluded from state funding on
the bases of their origin.
CHAIR DYSON held SB 167 in committee.
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